Curious Mind Grapes
Curious Mind Grapes is a podcast where we explore all the strange, wondrous, interconnected things in life. In each episode, sometimes with guests, we explore topics like psychology, health, energy medicine, science, pop culture, and so much more.
Curious Mind Grapes
Mantras & Mudras: Finding Calm Amidst the Chaos
In this episode, join us as we delve into the ancient practice of mantras and mudras for meditation and wellness. We discuss the scientific evidence related to the benefits of these techniques, including how mantras can help calm the mind and break negative thought patterns, and how hand mudras can activate different energy centers in the body and affect our overall wellbeing.
We share our personal experiences with mantras and mudras, noting the immediate calming effects, and explore the connections between mantras, mudras, and other mind-body practices like breathwork, tapping, and Gregorian chants, which are all tied to ancient wisdom and are now being scientifically validated.
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Mantras are a single word, or phrase, that you repeat to yourself out loud, or silently. Not just on your yoga mat, but also while doing daily tasks like waiting in line at the grocery store, taking a walk, or preparing for work meetings.
Over two decades of research have found that mantras offer an impressive list of benefits: reducing depression, anxiety, distress, and posttraumatic stress symptoms; and fostering mindfulness, positive coping skills, and a sense of wellbeing. One of the ways that mantras create these positive effects is by replacing unhelpful mind chatter.
Most spiritual traditions have them, many in the form of chants such as in Christian, Buddhist, and various indigenous traditions. While affirmations, a secular type of mantra, can be used in the same way, researcher Doug Oman of the UC Berkeley School of Public Health has found that there is an added benefit to using mantras derived from spiritual traditions for people who are grounded in those particular religions.
Mudras are hand, finger, eye, or body positions used in yoga to channel the flow of prana, or life force energy or electromagnetic energy, to stimulate the body and mind.
REFERENCES:
Mantras
Minding the Brain Podcast, Doug Oman
Oman, D. (2024). What is a mantra? Guidance for practitioners, researchers, and editors. American Psychologist. Advance online publication. https://doi.org/10.1037/amp0001368
Bormann, J. E., Kane, J. J., & Oman, D. (2020). Mantram repetition: A portable practice for being mindful. Mindfulness, 11(8), 2031–2033.
Green Tara
Vilhauer, J. (2019, June 29). Mantra: A Powerful Way to Improve Your Well-Being. Psychology Today. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-forward/201906/mantra-powerful-way-improve-your-well-being
Mudras
Yoga 101: Mudras for Beginners
https://artoflivingretreatcenter.org/blog/yoga-101-mudras-for-beginners/
Effect of yoga mudras in improving the health of users: A precautionary measure practice in daily life for resisting the deadly COVID-19 disease https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9347266/
Classification of Electrophotonic Images of Yogic Practice of Mudra through Neural Networks
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29755225/
The Science Behind Yoga Mudras
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Welcome to Curious Mind Grapes with your hosts, Christine and Mary. Hey Mary, hey Christine, How's it going?
Mary:Good. How are you doing?
Christine:Doing okay yeah.
Mary:So I watched that video. You sent me the YouTube video about mantras.
Christine:Okay.
Mary:I actually watched it like three times.
Christine:Wow, very cool. So the one with Doug Oman yeah, berkeley, okay.
Mary:Berkeley yeah yeah, no, I loved it. I thought it was really good. I love how like they just they talk about like what a mantra really is and some of the science behind it and just just um, teasing out, you know, the the ancient tradition of it versus the modern interpretation of it, and I thought it was really good and I realized I didn't really understand what a mantra was, because I think our our like modern society has really sort of dumbed it down a little bit Like and we use the word so frequently now without really understanding what it means. I actually asked a few people I said what do you think a mantra is? And no one could really tell me.
Christine:What kind of answers were you getting, if any?
Mary:people would go oh yeah, mantras. They would just say, I don't know, I I'm not really sure. I think it's something you say over and over again, and one person I talked to you said I think it's sort of like when people recite the rosary, it's something they say to be calm, okay, and I think um not about it.
Christine:Yeah, yeah, and I know we had talked about a mantra that you were trying out um was it all will be well yeah, yeah, julian of norwich, um, a religious figure, leader back during the the plague, living in Europe during the plague, she just was full of wisdom. She was very mystical, didn't really adhere to church teachings as much, she was kind of off this other level, and one of her famous quotes is all will be well and all will be well and all manner of things will be well, which I just find to be incredibly soothing and just incredibly cool too. It's almost like she was saying it to herself or to other people around her, like it's going to be okay, everything's going to be okay.
Mary:And have you been using that one consistently since we talked about it, like many weeks ago?
Christine:No, I was mostly using it during the time when I was doing a job search and feeling just unmoored in my life about what was next. Not that I was worried that I wouldn't be okay, but I just had no idea how things were going to turn out and I was trying to embrace just the now by by repeating that mantra.
Mary:And do you feel like it worked? Like how did you feel Calmness come over you quickly? Or did you, did it? Was it? Was it just sort of a delayed reaction where later in the day you realize I'm not as stressed?
Christine:No, it was immediate. I could feel my my heart rate coming down. I didn't actually measure it, I should have measured it, but I felt this incredible sense of warmth and calm. Yeah, I know other like often with mantras and mudras, as we'll talk about later. They are most effective if you do, you repeat them regularly, like on a daily basis, in the morning and the evening. But I think they also have that immediate effect too. Not all of them, but certain ones.
Mary:They also have that immediate effect too. Not all of them, but certain ones. Yeah, I think that's giving me two, two thoughts. First is I guess it's like you're creating a neural pathway and the more you do it it's just kind of go, it goes right to it, it goes right to the feeling you want Right.
Christine:Right, right, and I was thinking. A couple of weeks ago I was at the motor vehicle department and it was like my third time there because I kept getting the. For some reason, even though I have like 20 employees, I kept getting this one woman who is so annoying have for these new smart IDs. And I said to her I have global entry, I've gone through Homeland Security processes to get global entry and you're asking me for things that they didn't even ask. That doesn't sound right. But she kept insisting and so on.
Christine:This third time they went in. They now have someone, a guy, who checks all your paperwork to make sure you have everything you need, and I was missing something. And I didn't think I needed it for this time around because she'd give me a checklist and it wasn't on there Anyway. So I was getting really upset because I only because I work now five days a week, I don't have flexibility I managed to make an appointment. They have very few appointments and you have to schedule them. You can't just walk in anymore, and I wanted to also be registered to vote and I had a deadline for that. So I was getting upset and at one point he's like ma'am, you're just going to need to calm down and I said, generally it's not helpful when men tell women to calm down. Um, and it's funny, there was a woman that he was training at the time. She kind of looked at me like yeah, but um, did you actually say that to her?
Mary:are you thinking that in your head?
Christine:I said that to him you actually said that, okay, okay.
Christine:Yeah, and we got through that. I got all the stuff I needed. I ended up with that same woman somehow. So like, again, there are 20 different people. I ended up with the same woman. She asked me for something again. I had it this time.
Christine:But, as I was saying to her once again, I don't see why you need this if Homeland Security doesn't need this. And her manager happened to be walking by, a woman who overheard the conversation, and she said what is that that you're talking about? And she told her and she's like, yeah, you don't need that. I was like, oh my God. So I just said go back to my breathing.
Christine:And in the end I went back and thanked the man who had annoyed me, because he did guide me on the things that I did need and he also had said you don't need that other thing. She's saying so. And then I thanked him for his help and he said something like you did really well, like good, great job, and it was like. It was almost like he had been a school teacher, but it wasn't patronizing, it was just interesting. Yeah, it was interesting. And I realized I got the sense that either the woman who was training said something or he realized, like don't tell a woman to calm down when this is her third time, because then he did had to deal another young woman who was also having a bit of a problem because they the same thing had happened to her, just with different paperwork and um. So hopefully, I think by that point too, maybe he was saying, oh, maybe it's not them, maybe it's the system.
Mary:Yeah, yeah, well, that's what I was just thinking and also also thinking is there in these, these interesting people that were thrown into your path, very interesting people?
Christine:right, yeah, that is not chance that on three separate trips over like six months, I ended up with the same woman who kept mispronouncing like purposely mispronouncing my maiden name too. Wow, so, um, yeah. So I used my well. I was upset when I got in the car to go get the paperwork that he said I needed, which was correct. I just did my breathing and my mantras, so I think that was the last time.
Mary:They mentioned that. I think they mentioned that the the scientific evidence of the benefits is that so often mantra use is paired with breath work. Or or you are you purposefully or not, you are breathing in a cadence because you're talking in a cadence and how that is also helping your body calm and de-stress. Do you feel like you're doing that on purpose with the breath work, or you just it just came along with saying the mantra?
Christine:Well, I purposely paired it in this case.
Mary:Do you feel like? When you first started using the, you said you feel like instantly calm when you use it. Did it felt that way from the very first time that you used it or did.
Christine:Okay, yeah, and I think is that just that particular mantra, because, um, several years ago I worked with a woman who was trained through deepak chopra's um institute and she gave each of us our own personal mantra and I I used it, uh, because it had all mantras of, as you might have heard, sort of have, as any words do, any sounds have different vibratory levels. The sound like a Sanskrit word sound and I didn't have the same kind of immediate or ever same kind of reaction to it. So I know one of the things Doug Oman said, either in that interview or maybe it was in one of his research papers that when we have, when we use mantras that are tied into our particular spiritual background, they tend to resonate more and they they actually show a greater physical and emotional mental effect on us he did talk about that because I was actually wondering if that's why that one works so well for you, because they talked about the idea of um.
Mary:You know, mantras have relationships to different religions. There's the I guess the word mantra is more eastern, he said and then in western religions they might call it like a prayer word or like the rosary, but that there's schools of thought, I guess, in this research of keeping the definition to be, uh, derived from a spiritual tradition, not just this more modern definition. We're like, oh, my mantra is peace today, like you know. Or I mantra is coffee, you know, or you know how people use it now. Yeah.
Christine:Yeah.
Mary:Let it go. That's my mantra now and that's fine, Like it's great. But I was really interested and wanted to hear more about this idea of really looking at the spiritual traditions and how there is more benefit, more bang for your buck If you are pulling a mantra from a spiritual traditions, right.
Christine:Yeah, and I don't know that in the things that I read from him I don't think he went into the why that much. That's probably research to be done. I'm guessing too that the research has been done in other countries, particularly India. Information on mantras and mudras in Indian medical journals. We're kind of newcomers in America to this study, a scientific study of these things.
Mary:And I guess what's sort of newer and correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding is this idea of the portable mantras, or portable mantras. Have they been around for a long time? They just didn't call them that. Like a short and sweet mantra, I guess one that you could take with you into. The example they gave was going into a party, or a really interesting example of like a doctor working at a hospital and having the cue of before I walk into a patient's room, I'm going to say this mantra three times. Before I walk into a patient's room, I'm going to say this mantra three times, mantra in your pocket.
Christine:Yeah, I think that is a newer.
Christine:A newer I mean, I may be wrong, but I get the sense that that's a newer concept of kind of Western concept like kind of mantras to go, a pocket mantra, as you said, because in kind of yogic practice where mantras are used, it's usually in the context of sitting quietly like on your meditation mat and spending like maybe 20 minutes a day doing that and um and apparent, like research has shown, that there's like it does incredible things to you.
Christine:It changes your life. If you can do that I've never been able to keep it up. It's like 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the evening, for like 30 days and, like any habit, I have the feeling the effect will be very different. I was reading that with mudras, if you hold them for 20 minutes a day in your meditations twice a day and they actually did a study on that versus people doing it three minutes in the morning and the evening, there was a significant difference in the sex. So, yeah, so I'm guessing it would be the same with mantras too. You still get benefit like like eons more well, and I don't we're.
Mary:We can turn the conversation towards mudras, I guess in a little bit, but just planting this seed I I feel like that's an easier thing for me to do because I, when I was looking at what mudras are and the different ways, I feel like that's a little bit more of an attainable goal for me than repeating it in my head. But I guess that speaks to the importance of mantras and why they do help, because it helps your mind practice being in the right brain state, right. I love the example they gave of elephants in India as they're walking past fruit stands, which is, you know, whomp, and just take their trunks and just grab some fruit, so they give the elephant something to hold like a stick, and then the elephant won't do that. So the mantra is giving your mind something to hold.
Mary:And you know, I was wondering, I was just had questions about a mantra in your mind as you're meditating, versus a quiet mind where you're just observing your thoughts. You know, and those are two different ways of approaching meditation.
Christine:Right, right, and if you do mantras regularly, I think they become almost like a silent state.
Christine:During the pandemic, during the very beginning, when things were very uncertain and scary for people, the Dalai Lama had recommended people use the green Tara mantra Om Tare Tu Tare Ture Soha. People use the green Tara mantra Om Tare Tu Tare Ture Soha, and it's like a prayer mantra to green Tara. Who is this kind of overarching Tara, our goddess, who one of her main gifts to the world is healing. And so I was practicing that a lot and found that very soothing. And, um, if you do it enough times, um, like in in yoga practice, a lot of times, you'll have a those um mala beads, and they're either them, because that's considered to be a sacred number, and when you do 108 repetitions of a mantra, at some point it's like the rosary. At some point it just becomes less about the words and more about just the tones and it is very meditative. It is obviously a more active practice than sitting in silent meditation, but but it kind of moves you beyond the words at some point, for lack of a better description that's good to hear.
Mary:I I have not tried. I I have tried mantras and things like that in my meditation and I find like it just gets messy and doesn't work that well. And I'm not gonna lie, I didn't stick with it it very long because I tended to go towards more of a quiet mind, redirecting my brain when I, you know, oh that's a thought, that's a thought, or doing some of like the Tara Brock guided meditations where I've got a person's voice sort of reminding me to follow my breath, or even using my breath as the stick in the elephant's trunk. You know, I'm just watching my breath.
Mary:I guess I had this question when I first heard it Like, in a weird way, it's almost, I know it's not, but it almost comes across like that bypassing. Oh, I'm just going to think about this instead, and then I don't actually have to, I'm not observing my thoughts because I'm giving my brain a stick, but it's nice to hear that over time it does have these amazing positive effects. You're not just bypassing and using a trick. You really are teaching your brain to be in a different state, to go there and more right and be more restful and peaceful, right.
Christine:Yeah, because you're directing your thoughts to a single purpose.
Mary:Mm-hmm. It strengthens your brain's ability to be off the conveyor belt. Thinking of anxiety and-.
Christine:Monkey mind Monkey mind yeah. Yeah, yes, a lot of the work that in this, this country, the research that's been done has been on mantras and pts, because again, it's helping you, to helping people to get out of those loops, um, and into a place of calm. Like redirecting, not redirecting, not redirect, yeah, yeah, break the cycle of the ruminative thinking. Yeah.
Mary:I thought it was interesting and I did know a little bit about this, but in some traditions like TM or the transcendental meditation, how you're instructed not to share your mantra and that some students may not even know what their mantra means, and that some mantras are so short, like um, and that the one of the presenters was talking about one that was 21 syllables long that he had to memorize. Yikes, are they? And they even used an example of um. Was it in that youtube where they talked about even the 23rd Psalm being considered a mantra? And one of the people, when I asked them about what they thought a mantra was, they actually mentioned that particular Psalm. Yeah, but that was really interesting that they came up twice.
Christine:Yeah, I can see that there's something that's really about that 23rd Psalm it does. It's very rhythmic and also very soothing somehow, and I don't know. That would be really interesting to find out what the like, what the research is on that Cause. There's something very, very unique about that Psalm and I could see that categorization making a lot of sense yeah, yeah, and hail marys and rosaries and all of that yeah, although I mean this 23rd psalm is from the old testament, so different tradition yeah, yeah yeah, with short mantras like om.
Christine:That one is actually um, one of the vibratory sounds that's associated with the chakras. There is research on that. I I can't tell you what it is offhand, but um, just like, like sound healing theory, those single syllable sounds, especially when they're sung, do have a physiological effect. It's pretty amazing.
Mary:Yeah, yeah, and I know I think we've talked about this the idea that even things like humming can change, you know, affect how your vagal tone and how your vagus nerve is operating, and, um, yeah, yeah yeah, one of the coolest experiences I ever um had was at this place called christ in the desert.
Christine:It's a monastery I believe it's a bened Benedictine monastery in the middle of the desert in New Mexico and we just went there just to check it out and when we got there the monks were chanting. It's that kind of ancient chanting and that stuff's really magical too. Like If you've ever listened to Gregorian chants and things, there's something incredibly powerful about the resonance of those. Even though I don't speak Latin, I don't know what they're talking about. And the same with Tibetan Buddhist monks too. They do a lot of chanting. It's also that kind of deep, resonant tone.
Mary:Yeah, and you were mentioning earlier the mantras are affecting your brain state with all these benefits, and we were talking about the mudras earlier doing that too.
Christine:So, yeah, you asked me if I was aware of any research on how mantras affect the brain and I, like I said, I'm sure it's out there, I just am not familiar. A few years ago I took a course on mudras as part of my continuing education, for my yoga teacher certification, and it was taught by two teachers from India and they brought in a lot of research from Indian medical journals on the beneficial effects of mudras. And, like in the Vedic tradition, each finger represents a different element and, just like with Chinese medicine, there are different physical states, different organs, different energetic patterns that are associated with different elements, like earth, air, water, fire, and so the same with Vedic medicine, um, so each finger is associated with a different element and by bringing together different combinations of fingers, that activates these elements and therefore affect positively affect different organs and um states of consciousness and emotional channels, which is really interesting. But the two, the teachers I had also pointed out the more recent research just showed kind of the neural connections that are created, and I remember learning that in grad school about the different hemispheres of the brain and how you know, the left side of your brain controls the right side of your body and vice versa, and so they were saying that a lot of the mudras like intertwine the fingers in different ways, or you hold your fingers and hands in different positions, and that activates different areas of the brain and also by bringing pressure to that light pressure, it's kind of like acupressure as well, so you're activating different systems in the body. So this really ancient practice of just I mean there and I'm talking about hand mudras there are many different forms of mudras, but I don't know about the other forms.
Christine:The hand mudra is like one of my favorite ones that I use in yoga every time I teach. It is the anjali mudra, which is where you just bring your hands together and palms together, fingers touching, and place your thumb knuckles against the center of your chest, kind of just at your breastplate, what is it called sternum, and that activates the heart chakra. So yeah, and it's, it's you that, and that gesture, too, is used in so many traditions, and when people give thanks to they often bring their hands just instinctively to their hearts. So that's a simple one that I use every time with classes. Another one that I really love is I believe it's called pronounced Dhyana Madra, d-h-y-a-n-a, and where you place your left palm up, then your right palm facing up on top of it, and just join your thumbs and hold it.
Christine:Hold, I guess, usually in front of your solar plexus, and it's just really grounding, balancing. It represents kind of the wholeness of the universe, the entirety of the universe and the wholeness balance kind of creates something of a circle and also again connects the different hemispheres. So there are a lot of different ones. Or the classic Buddha pose, thumb to forefinger, other fingers kind of extended up in jnana or jnana mudra, and that's associated with wisdom and become so. Yeah, there are I think there are literally hundreds of madras and they all have a different purpose. And I'll put links in the show notes to several different studies from India that talk about, as I was saying earlier, like just the practice of madras, the different ways they're beneficial, um health-wise, emotionally, all that, and also that um study on an amount of time spent in them and the extra benefits from the longer times the first time I heard about them was during a yoga class.
Mary:I started working with a new teacher and she was talking about just the laying of your hands.
Mary:Even when you're just in a seated pose, you know breathing and meditating at the beginning or the end, and I'd never heard anyone talk about the importance of even just which hand goes on top of the other hand or changing.
Mary:And when you mentioned mudras, to me of course like was googling and looking at things online and I would really encourage our listeners to try that as well and try some of these mudras. There's great videos. I'll put some of the show notes just showing you how to make them, reminding you which fingers you're touching and what you're activating you and tying them to the different earth energies. You know fire and what you're activating you and tying them to the different earth energies. You know fire and water, like I think you were saying, and then therefore, you know in that tradition, like I think water, for example, was, might have been like your reproductive organs or maybe even your asthma and breathing, and when one person was talking about how that biological energy it's maximized in the fingertips and the tips are touching, so joining them helps incorporate things, and it's just so.
Mary:As I tried a couple of them, I could feel almost instantly that I had sensations in my body, different positive sensations. Now, of course, you want to try them when you're you know, probably when you're sitting quietly, so you can really feel those sensations. But as I sat here, I really could tell that different things were happening as I moved my hands into different positions Incredibly peaceful, incredibly peaceful, really beautiful and so simple.
Christine:It is really simple and yeah, I mean we have we've talked about this before. We have electromagnetic energy just running through our bodies. It's part of everything in the universe. But when the way our bodies are designed, and particularly the fingertips, like you said, it's kind of exaggerated there and I know we have like very sensitive nerve endings there too. That's why when you get a finger prick for a blood test, it like hurts so stinking much and so, yeah, so bringing those together it kind of creates almost like a battery-like connection, terminal connection.
Christine:And yeah, one of the articles I came across was like a clinical trial where they had 30 people in the control group, 30 approximately in the experimental group, and they had them doing different mudras that were related to breath, and this was during COVID and they found like significant differences in the two groups in terms of ability to breathe and other outcomes. So yeah, again, our bodies are really incredible and they're designed to heal, if we just know how to do that. But we've lost so much of this knowledge in our in our culture or we don't don't have it, you know.
Mary:But it's there for the taken yeah, and I think it's powerful and subtle at the same time. And when we're living in a chaotic world and we don't really have peaceful moments, it you have to. It probably is very hard to set. We've lost our ability to really sense these things because we're so stimulated by so many things.
Christine:Everything's loud in our face right and talk about electromagnetic energy.
Mary:We're just like surrounded by it yeah, I mean, and then the combination of a mudra and a mantra while you're breathing yeah, yeah yeah and um. It also made me think about the idea of its connection to tapping and EFT and like hitting those different points, because often in tapping you are repeating phrases as well right, right, while activating different areas that are associated with the endocrine, endocrine glands and neural neural hubs. So yeah, Are there certain mantras that go with certain mudras?
Christine:No, I, just before you're talking about that. I immediately what came to mind was the idea of the Jaya mudra and OM. That seems to be a classic one, but sure there, I'm sure there are.
Mary:Yeah, do you use mudras um, every time you meditate, do you tend to hold your hand in a specific mudra, or do you use it more during your yoga poses, or? How do they fit into your life right now?
Christine:I definitely use it in the context of yoga and the centering part of yoga, but I should get back to trying, especially now that I have read that part about the 20 minutes twice a day and how that makes a big difference. I want to experiment with that.
Mary:And I want to experiment with the different kinds, because I only knew like one or two. So a couple of times when I was meditating I would try it and I'm like this doesn't feel all that great. Well, maybe just wasn't the right one for what I was trying to accomplish.
Christine:Yeah, and some are more awkward than others too.
Mary:Yeah, but a more purposeful approach to you know, picking a mudra that's going to work for me in the situation I'm in that day.
Christine:Yeah.
Mary:But I do have some cute videos that you can look at see if you think that they're good to put in. Every video I looked at was from India, though it was interesting.
Christine:Yeah, when I was looking for additional resources today, I felt like the ones that were from America didn't quite get it. Yeah, yeah, and so I think India is the best source. Or those like legit ashrams or yoga centers, like the art of living. Um, they had a I put in an article from them, although they weren't scientific at all, but I think that's okay, given that we have other stuff that definitely is and then I two that I found online that I like were from the yoga institute.
Mary:Oh, what is that? And I don't know. I just I was just googling mudras, what you know mudras for, like relaxation, mudras for, you know, for working with the, the veg, the you know vagus nerve yeah, there was an interview with Deepak Chopra where he talks about the vagus nerve, because I think they had asked him about it.
Christine:He's great because he is a physician as well as, like, very knowledgeable about meditation.
Mary:So one of the mudras that they talked about was for when you're feeling stressed and you put your thumbs in your ears to kind of block out sound. Your first finger over your eyelids, your middle finger is pushing throughout your nostrils and then your ring and pinky go above and below your mouth. You just rest it gently on your face and it's supposed to almost give the feeling that you're in the womb and sensory deprivation. It was so cool.
Christine:Oh, I would love to try that. Yeah, I have not heard of that one. Oh, I, I would love to try that. Yeah, I have not heard of that one.
Mary:Like I said, there are hundreds and I just have many to explore still, yeah, I mean you feel, because you can sort of hear your heartbeat and you hear your breathing and I I don't putting your fingers lightly like that on your face, it was just. It was such an interesting instant sensation. So so yeah, I'm a convert. I'm going to be researching mudras and doing a lot of mudras now.
Christine:Doing a lot of mudring.
Mary:I'm going to be doing some mudring.
Christine:Thank you for listening to Curious Mind Graves. For more information, please check out our show notes, where we provide links and references to the topics we've covered.
